[TEAM] Gathering "testimonials" for marketing purposes

[Mark F]

I'm a new Xubuntu user. I've been using Lubuntu for over a year. I saw this
topic in the mailing-list archives and thought this post (questions,
observations) might be welcome here. I think it ties into marketing?

I looked at Mint Xfce and, to be honest, I like it *much* more. The only
reason I went with Xubuntu is the larger community of support (Ubuntu's
forums). I'd rather try to make Xubuntu better than to contribute to a fork.

What I'm wondering is whether you guys ever evaluate Mint Xfce and consider
evolving the desktop in that direction? Is it ever even discussed? (Is
there a way to find a past discussion like that in the mailing-list
archive?).

For example:

- Wisker menu progresses right to left (categories are on right open to
reveal contents on the left). Using MintX, right-to-left stood out to me
immediately as more intuitive.

- Right/left clicking on taskbar entries seems unintuitive to me. It seems
like left clicks are passed through the applet and into the underlying
taskbar. (Right clicks access the applet's options?). MintX seems to have
addressed this. It works differently.

- Wisker menu's categories automatically reveal content by mousing over
each one. (No click required).

- How is inclusion into Wisker's "Settings" and "System" chosen? It's like
everything is in Settings. I'm not sure I could differentiate between those
two categories. But, it seems like no differentiation is occuring. (But, it
is because two items are in "System.").

- A lot of things seem unintuitive to me. What's called "[Distro] Software
Center" in other distros is just "Software" in Xubuntu. It's in the
"Favorites" category, not in "System" nor "Settings."

- The "Software" tool seems very slow and uninformative compared to
Lubuntu's "Software Center" (And MintX's). I tried to install Keepass2,
which was available in Lubutu's software center. It's not in Xubuntu's.

- I found a Keepass package, but it made me authenticate with my Ubuntu
single-signon. It wouldn't authenticate me, giving a repeated error (even
though I can login to the Ubuntu One site). I like the goal behind this.
But, it's a free package. I shouldn't have to go through these hurdles.
It's a *big* problem if I can't access my passwords in a new install.


- Menu bar on top. Not easy to figure out how to put it on the bottom. Not
"mainstream" if you're trying to appeal to new users (familiar with
Windows)?

So, I'm just wondering (in terms of marketing, appealing to more users),
has this topic ever come up before? Evaluating what draws people to other
Xfce environments? What the others are doing right? Why they chose to fork
(and duplicate efforts)? Would it make sense to solicit surveys (instead of
testimonials)?

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm complaining. I understand no desktop
will meet everyone's needs. But, this thread implies outreach, seeking to
gain popularity. MintX seems more popular (according to distrowatch?). I'm
just wondering if this discussion has ever occurred? (I.e., should Xubuntu
try to incorporate any of MintX's features?).

Is it possible to install MintX's desktop in Xubuntu? Would it make sense
to offer that desktop more clearly (or a desktop made specifically to be
more like MintX, so people who might choose that distro could more easily
choose Xubuntu?).

Again, I hope I'm not causing a problem. This topic seemed to be about
advocacy, increasing relevancy. Since I've just been comparing Xfce
desktops, the topic of "why is Xubuntu's desktop the way it is?" seemed
like a natural question. It makes me wonder if anyone has gone back to
"square one" and questioned everything. (When I see everything lumped into
"Settings," I get the impression that discussion hasn't occured. The
desktop is just an evolution and hasn't been re-thought from the ground
up?).

I look forward to reading responses. I just feel like something is missing.
Ubuntu has the support and immediacy of security patches. But, Mint has the
appeal to new users (IMO). I just wonder if anyone has tried to bridge that
gap.

Thanks!

[Jack Jr.]

Friends,

I like Xubuntu with pure XFCE.

Xubuntu is as pure as Debian with XFCE with the advantage of being an
Ubuntu flavor

I think Xubuntu perfect the way it is

Thanks

Jack Pogorelsky Junior
Mechanical Engineer
Tel: [phone]
Site: sulmail.com/pogorelsky

Post by Mark F
I'm a new Xubuntu user. I've been using Lubuntu for over a year. I saw
this topic in the mailing-list archives and thought this post
(questions, observations) might be welcome here. I think it ties into
marketing?
I looked at Mint Xfce and, to be honest, I like it *much* more. The
only reason I went with Xubuntu is the larger community of support
(Ubuntu's forums). I'd rather try to make Xubuntu better than to
contribute to a fork.
What I'm wondering is whether you guys ever evaluate Mint Xfce and
consider evolving the desktop in that direction? Is it ever even
discussed? (Is there a way to find a past discussion like that in the
mailing-list archive?).
- Wisker menu progresses right to left (categories are on right open
to reveal contents on the left). Using MintX, right-to-left stood out
to me immediately as more intuitive.
- Right/left clicking on taskbar entries seems unintuitive to me. It
seems like left clicks are passed through the applet and into the
underlying taskbar. (Right clicks access the applet's options?). MintX
seems to have addressed this. It works differently.
- Wisker menu's categories automatically reveal content by mousing
over each one. (No click required).
- How is inclusion into Wisker's "Settings" and "System" chosen? It's
like everything is in Settings. I'm not sure I could differentiate
between those two categories. But, it seems like no differentiation is
occuring. (But, it is because two items are in "System.").
- A lot of things seem unintuitive to me. What's called "[Distro]
Software Center" in other distros is just "Software" in Xubuntu. It's
in the "Favorites" category, not in "System" nor "Settings."
- The "Software" tool seems very slow and uninformative compared to
Lubuntu's "Software Center" (And MintX's). I tried to install
Keepass2, which was available in Lubutu's software center. It's not in
Xubuntu's.
- I found a Keepass package, but it made me authenticate with my
Ubuntu single-signon. It wouldn't authenticate me, giving a
repeated error (even though I can login to the Ubuntu One site). I
like the goal behind this. But, it's a free package. I shouldn't
have to go through these hurdles. It's a *big* problem if I can't
access my passwords in a new install.
- Menu bar on top. Not easy to figure out how to put it on the bottom.
Not "mainstream" if you're trying to appeal to new users (familiar
with Windows)?
So, I'm just wondering (in terms of marketing, appealing to more
users), has this topic ever come up before? Evaluating what draws
people to other Xfce environments? What the others are doing right?
Why they chose to fork (and duplicate efforts)? Would it make sense to
solicit surveys (instead of testimonials)?
I hope this doesn't sound like I'm complaining. I understand no
desktop will meet everyone's needs. But, this thread implies outreach,
seeking to gain popularity. MintX seems more popular (according to
distrowatch?). I'm just wondering if this discussion has ever
occurred? (I.e., should Xubuntu try to incorporate any of MintX's
features?).
Is it possible to install MintX's desktop in Xubuntu? Would it make
sense to offer that desktop more clearly (or a desktop made
specifically to be more like MintX, so people who might choose that
distro could more easily choose Xubuntu?).
Again, I hope I'm not causing a problem. This topic seemed to be about
advocacy, increasing relevancy. Since I've just been comparing Xfce
desktops, the topic of "why is Xubuntu's desktop the way it is?"
seemed like a natural question. It makes me wonder if anyone has gone
back to "square one" and questioned everything. (When I see everything
lumped into "Settings," I get the impression that discussion hasn't
occured. The desktop is just an evolution and hasn't been re-thought
from the ground up?).
I look forward to reading responses. I just feel like something is
missing. Ubuntu has the support and immediacy of security patches.
But, Mint has the appeal to new users (IMO). I just wonder if anyone
has tried to bridge that gap.
Thanks!

[Mark F]

Thanks for replying, Jack. Maybe I misunderstood what's involved with
MintX. In what way is not pure Xfce? I looked at xfce.org and they show a
different-appearing desktop than MintX or Xubuntu.

I thought it was more a matter of default configuration, choices about
application categories, making something more or less intuitive (and,
whether "intuitive" is targeting a larger group, novices, etc.).

Post by Jack Jr.
Friends,
I like Xubuntu with pure XFCE.
Xubuntu is as pure as Debian with XFCE with the advantage of being an
Ubuntu flavor
I think Xubuntu perfect the way it is
Thanks
Jack Pogorelsky Junior
Mechanical Engineer
Tel: [phone]
Site: sulmail.com/pogorelsky
I'm a new Xubuntu user. I've been using Lubuntu for over a year. I saw
this topic in the mailing-list archives and thought this post (questions,
observations) might be welcome here. I think it ties into marketing?
I looked at Mint Xfce and, to be honest, I like it *much* more. The only
reason I went with Xubuntu is the larger community of support (Ubuntu's
forums). I'd rather try to make Xubuntu better than to contribute to a fork.
What I'm wondering is whether you guys ever evaluate Mint Xfce and
consider evolving the desktop in that direction? Is it ever even discussed?
(Is there a way to find a past discussion like that in the mailing-list
archive?).
- Wisker menu progresses right to left (categories are on right open to
reveal contents on the left). Using MintX, right-to-left stood out to me
immediately as more intuitive.
- Right/left clicking on taskbar entries seems unintuitive to me. It seems
like left clicks are passed through the applet and into the underlying
taskbar. (Right clicks access the applet's options?). MintX seems to have
addressed this. It works differently.
- Wisker menu's categories automatically reveal content by mousing over
each one. (No click required).
- How is inclusion into Wisker's "Settings" and "System" chosen? It's like
everything is in Settings. I'm not sure I could differentiate between those
two categories. But, it seems like no differentiation is occuring. (But, it
is because two items are in "System.").
- A lot of things seem unintuitive to me. What's called "[Distro] Software
Center" in other distros is just "Software" in Xubuntu. It's in the
"Favorites" category, not in "System" nor "Settings."
- The "Software" tool seems very slow and uninformative compared to
Lubuntu's "Software Center" (And MintX's). I tried to install Keepass2,
which was available in Lubutu's software center. It's not in Xubuntu's.
- I found a Keepass package, but it made me authenticate with my Ubuntu
single-signon. It wouldn't authenticate me, giving a repeated error (even
though I can login to the Ubuntu One site). I like the goal behind this.
But, it's a free package. I shouldn't have to go through these hurdles.
It's a *big* problem if I can't access my passwords in a new install.
- Menu bar on top. Not easy to figure out how to put it on the bottom. Not
"mainstream" if you're trying to appeal to new users (familiar with
Windows)?
So, I'm just wondering (in terms of marketing, appealing to more users),
has this topic ever come up before? Evaluating what draws people to other
Xfce environments? What the others are doing right? Why they chose to fork
(and duplicate efforts)? Would it make sense to solicit surveys (instead of
testimonials)?
I hope this doesn't sound like I'm complaining. I understand no desktop
will meet everyone's needs. But, this thread implies outreach, seeking to
gain popularity. MintX seems more popular (according to distrowatch?). I'm
just wondering if this discussion has ever occurred? (I.e., should Xubuntu
try to incorporate any of MintX's features?).
Is it possible to install MintX's desktop in Xubuntu? Would it make sense
to offer that desktop more clearly (or a desktop made specifically to be
more like MintX, so people who might choose that distro could more easily
choose Xubuntu?).
Again, I hope I'm not causing a problem. This topic seemed to be about
advocacy, increasing relevancy. Since I've just been comparing Xfce
desktops, the topic of "why is Xubuntu's desktop the way it is?" seemed
like a natural question. It makes me wonder if anyone has gone back to
"square one" and questioned everything. (When I see everything lumped into
"Settings," I get the impression that discussion hasn't occured. The
desktop is just an evolution and hasn't been re-thought from the ground
up?).
I look forward to reading responses. I just feel like something is
missing. Ubuntu has the support and immediacy of security patches. But,
Mint has the appeal to new users (IMO). I just wonder if anyone has tried
to bridge that gap.
Thanks!
--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel

[Pasi Lallinaho]

Hello Mark,

please find my comments inline.

Post by Mark F
I'm a new Xubuntu user. I've been using Lubuntu for over a year. I saw
this topic in the mailing-list archives and thought this post
(questions, observations) might be welcome here. I think it ties into
marketing?
I looked at Mint Xfce and, to be honest, I like it *much* more. The
only reason I went with Xubuntu is the larger community of support
(Ubuntu's forums). I'd rather try to make Xubuntu better than to
contribute to a fork.
What I'm wondering is whether you guys ever evaluate Mint Xfce and
consider evolving the desktop in that direction? Is it ever even
discussed? (Is there a way to find a past discussion like that in the
mailing-list archive?).

The desktop ideology has been discussed many times, often in small
pieces rather than a discussion whether some other existing desktop is
something the Xubuntu desktop should more or less imitate. With these
discussions, the Xubuntu desktop has evolved to what it is now. Of
course that doesn't mean nothing can be changed; we've reverted changes
before.

The development list archives can be found at
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/. Unfortunately Mailman
doesn't have a search feature, but the message subject lines can be used
to finding some stuff.

Post by Mark F
- Wisker menu progresses right to left (categories are on right open
to reveal contents on the left). Using MintX, right-to-left stood out
to me immediately as more intuitive.

I don't use Whisker myself, but I think this is configurable.

Post by Mark F
- Right/left clicking on taskbar entries seems unintuitive to me. It
seems like left clicks are passed through the applet and into the
underlying taskbar. (Right clicks access the applet's options?). MintX
seems to have addressed this. It works differently.

Please specify differently? What in the left/right clicks is unintuitive
for you?

Post by Mark F
- Wisker menu's categories automatically reveal content by mousing
over each one. (No click required).

This is configurable via Whisker's settings.

Post by Mark F
- How is inclusion into Wisker's "Settings" and "System" chosen? It's
like everything is in Settings. I'm not sure I could differentiate
between those two categories. But, it seems like no differentiation is
occuring. (But, it is because two items are in "System.").

Theoretically everything should be under Settings. This is controlled by
the so-called desktop files in the system. If you install
custom/non-default software to Xubuntu, it's likely that they will
appear under System though. We do try to gather everything that's
shipped by default to Settings.

Post by Mark F
- A lot of things seem unintuitive to me. What's called "[Distro]
Software Center" in other distros is just "Software" in Xubuntu. It's
in the "Favorites" category, not in "System" nor "Settings."
- The "Software" tool seems very slow and uninformative compared to
Lubuntu's "Software Center" (And MintX's). I tried to install
Keepass2, which was available in Lubutu's software center. It's not in
Xubuntu's.
- I found a Keepass package, but it made me authenticate with my
Ubuntu single-signon. It wouldn't authenticate me, giving a
repeated error (even though I can login to the Ubuntu One site). I
like the goal behind this. But, it's a free package. I shouldn't
have to go through these hurdles. It's a *big* problem if I can't
access my passwords in a new install.

The Software software (no pun intended) is created and maintained by
Canonical, and the Xubuntu team is not involved in the development at
all. The only thing we do with it is some quality assurance tasks to
make sure it more or less "works" with Xubuntu for the most basic tasks.

Software indeed does not show all packages installable on a system; it's
designed to list GUI packages only. Apparently this sometimes fails and
stuff like Keepass2 isn't listed.

The default package manager has been under discussion many times, but so
far the team hasn't been convinced enough that the other ones would be
good enough for the beginner users to make the switch. Power users
usually have a preferred package manager anyway, and they can find their
way to install it. If you are looking for GUI alternatives, take a look
at Synaptic.

Post by Mark F
- Menu bar on top. Not easy to figure out how to put it on the bottom.
Not "mainstream" if you're trying to appeal to new users (familiar
with Windows)?

Personally, I think it's a slippery slope to start deciding on defaults
based on the potential new users from other non-Linux operating systems.
To clarify, I'm welcoming all Windows users to use Xubuntu, I just don't
think imitating Windows visually is the way we can attract new users.

As you implied, Xubuntu does have (at least) decent support, and if the
panel position makes or breaks the deal for somebody, we can handle
instructing the users who can't figure it out themselves (or find the
answer online).

Post by Mark F
So, I'm just wondering (in terms of marketing, appealing to more
users), has this topic ever come up before? Evaluating what draws
people to other Xfce environments? What the others are doing right?

I would say this is done fairly regularly by some people on the team,
though it's not an active task that we schedule to do.

Post by Mark F
Why they chose to fork (and duplicate efforts)? Would it make sense to
solicit surveys (instead of testimonials)?

"Fork" is a strong (and a bit wrong) word; we are mostly talking about
default settings, not changing any code or any settings permanently or
irreversibly.

Different people like different things and as you say below, there's no
way to make everybody happy. I would imagine running a survey about
things you have mentioned (for example) would leave the team with a
mixed set of results and with no clear idea in which direction to go.

That said, I don't understand how such surveys could replace
testimonials or how they are comparable.

The surveys would in the ideal (though unrealistic) situation let the
Xubuntu team know what the users want and make Xubuntu better – for the
existing users at least.

The testimonials would be used to tell potential Xubuntu users why other
people like Xubuntu, and draw more people who like what we are doing
already to Xubuntu.

Post by Mark F
I hope this doesn't sound like I'm complaining. I understand no
desktop will meet everyone's needs. But, this thread implies outreach,
seeking to gain popularity.

While marketing can be about outreach and popularity, I wouldn't say
that would describe the kind of marketing Xubuntu has done so far and I
don't see this changing. (While Xubuntu wouldn't exist without the users
we have now, the future of Xubuntu doesn't rely on marketing being
successful, as opposed to a company that needs to sell its products to
be able to cover their costs.)

And because we do not rely on successful marketing, we can focus on
doing what we believe in instead of letting potential users define what
Xubuntu should become.

Post by Mark F
MintX seems more popular (according to distrowatch?). I'm just
wondering if this discussion has ever occurred? (I.e., should Xubuntu
try to incorporate any of MintX's features?).

As I said before, all the time. As an example, it isn't a long time ago
we introduced Whisker into Xubuntu.

Post by Mark F
Is it possible to install MintX's desktop in Xubuntu? Would it make
sense to offer that desktop more clearly (or a desktop made
specifically to be more like MintX, so people who might choose that
distro could more easily choose Xubuntu?).

Again, what we are talking about is mostly configuration, not
differences in code. Technically you could create a package that shipped
different defaults, but I'm not sure if that would be worth it or
something the Xubuntu team would do.

Instead of trying to ship many different setups and configurations,
people should embrace the configurability in Xfce and create their own.
The default configuration is "only" designed to be something sensible.

Post by Mark F
Again, I hope I'm not causing a problem. This topic seemed to be about
advocacy, increasing relevancy. Since I've just been comparing Xfce
desktops, the topic of "why is Xubuntu's desktop the way it is?"
seemed like a natural question. It makes me wonder if anyone has gone
back to "square one" and questioned everything. (When I see everything
lumped into "Settings," I get the impression that discussion hasn't
occured. The desktop is just an evolution and hasn't been re-thought
from the ground up?).

The desktop is indeed an evolution, but we're always re-evaluating it as
we go. The desktop ideology we are shipping is pretty much what we want
to ship and no dramatic changes have been necessary. If the desktop
becomes something we don't believe in any more, then a complete
re-evaluation will be done.

That said, all ideas are always welcome and heard.

Ultimately the people who make Xubuntu define what Xubuntu is. We always
welcome new contributors too!

Post by Mark F
I look forward to reading responses. I just feel like something is
missing. Ubuntu has the support and immediacy of security patches.
But, Mint has the appeal to new users (IMO). I just wonder if anyone
has tried to bridge that gap.
Thanks!

Finally, discussion is always welcome, no need to think you're causing
problems.

Cheers,
Pasi

[Mark F]

Pasi wrote: """ That said, I don't understand how such surveys could
replace testimonials or how they are comparable. """

What I am trying to get at is that testimonials and marketing imply
increasing "market" share. But, testimonials only query those who are
already sold -- not those who preferred a different Xfce implementation.

A survey would presumably ask people (the potential "market") what they
don't like about Xubuntu (why they chose a different Xfce-based distro). I
see it as a difference between the proverbial "preaching to the choir" or
expanding the target audience (maybe hearing things that aren't wanted).

What if a survey were included with the ISO ("test drive") environment? If
someone chose to install a different distro, they could have the
opportunity to explain what about Xubuntu they didn't like? (Or, what they
liked about the other distro.).

It's just a thought.

To me, I would have installed MintX if it had Ubuntu's support community.
You said most of what I mentioned is configurable. But, it's not very
intuitive. If it were that simple, why not include a "make-desktop-mint"
command to set the defaults for a MintX-like experience?

This topic (testimonials and marketing) caught my eye because it sounded
like a desire to expand marketshare. But, maybe I misread it. I suppose
another valid way to look at it is: "Xubuntu is what it is" and "we're
looking for more people who like it the way it is." Not so much concern for
why someone wouldn't want it the way it is (lost "market" potential).

Anyway, I'm using it for now. I want to at least start with what I feel is
the more official Xfce distro. I just saw this topic and thought I'd ask
about marketing and the opposite of testimonials. It seems like that could
lead to insight into how Xubuntu could appeal to more people.

Thanks.

[Mark F]

Another thought: I was looking at Zorin OS. They have a few desktop
configurations (XP, 7, 2000, Mac OS).

Something like that would be cool. (Not mimicking Windows that tightly,
but, making what's available in other distros available in Xubuntu -- with
a click?).

Again, I was focusing on the word "marketing" and "testimonial." I was
thinking a broader user base is being sought, more testimonials,
popularity, etc. I'm sure people like Xubuntu the way it is (or it wouldn't
exist at all). But, I see these other flavors and (to me) they seem
"updated," more responsive to what I would think "most people" would like.

So, I was trying to get at that. Whether that box is ever re-opened and
things that are accepted as "this is Xubuntu" are reconsidered. Jack's
response implied an either/or choice (and that the box isn't subject to
being re-opened).

Zorin's approach might be a neat way to reach more people without
disturbing those who like how Xubuntu is. If I knew how to do it, I'd do
it. I have a lot of free time. But, creating different desktop versions
like that is beyond me.

It just seems like a shame that to get something more modern/intuitive, a
person has to give up the larger ubuntuforums community support (and go
with Mint). That's an either/or choice too. I think it's unfortunate.
That's all I'm saying. I'd like to see Xubuntu reach a broader audience,
make MintX less of a competitor. (It's already less due to the smaller
community. But, it appeals to people for *some* reason. If it's all just
configuration/design, it wouldn't seem hard to *do* and create that path
for those users. More testimonials... more marketing?).

[Pasi Lallinaho]

Whether that box is ever re-opened and things that are accepted as
"this is Xubuntu" are reconsidered.

As I said in a previous mail, Xubuntu is ultimately defined by the
people who contribute to Xubuntu (this is equally true for all
volunteer-based projects).

This means if enough people want change (and are there to do the tasks
needed), then it's likely to happen as well.

Cheers,
Pasi
--
Pasi Lallinaho (knome) › http://open.knome.fi/
Leader of Shimmer Project › http://shimmerproject.org/
Xubuntu Website Lead › http://xubuntu.org/

[Benoit THIBAUD]

Have you tried the XFCE panel switch in the setting manager ?

It's not a whole answer to your request but it's here in Xubuntu. The
looking is also a theme. Perhaps a windows flavor for example the last
one (windows10 for example) and the last Mac OS should be added in the
default themes list in appearance.

Post by Mark F
Another thought: I was looking at Zorin OS. They have a few desktop
configurations (XP, 7, 2000, Mac OS).
Something like that would be cool. (Not mimicking Windows that
tightly, but, making what's available in other distros available in
Xubuntu -- with a click?).
Again, I was focusing on the word "marketing" and "testimonial." I was
thinking a broader user base is being sought, more testimonials,
popularity, etc. I'm sure people like Xubuntu the way it is (or it
wouldn't exist at all). But, I see these other flavors and (to me)
they seem "updated," more responsive to what I would think "most
people" would like.
So, I was trying to get at that. Whether that box is ever re-opened
and things that are accepted as "this is Xubuntu" are reconsidered.
Jack's response implied an either/or choice (and that the box isn't
subject to being re-opened).
Zorin's approach might be a neat way to reach more people without
disturbing those who like how Xubuntu is. If I knew how to do it, I'd
do it. I have a lot of free time. But, creating different desktop
versions like that is beyond me.
It just seems like a shame that to get something more
modern/intuitive, a person has to give up the larger ubuntuforums
community support (and go with Mint). That's an either/or choice too.
I think it's unfortunate. That's all I'm saying. I'd like to see
Xubuntu reach a broader audience, make MintX less of a competitor.
(It's already less due to the smaller community. But, it appeals to
people for *some* reason. If it's all just configuration/design, it
wouldn't seem hard to *do* and create that path for those users. More
testimonials... more marketing?).

[Pasi Lallinaho]

Hello Mark,

again, find my comments inline.

Post by Mark F
Pasi wrote: """ That said, I don't understand how such surveys could
replace testimonials or how they are comparable. """
What I am trying to get at is that testimonials and marketing imply
increasing "market" share. But, testimonials only query those who are
already sold -- not those who preferred a different Xfce implementation.

You are right, the testimonials are from those who like Xubuntu. That's
why they are perfect for marketing purposes – to tell everybody else why
they like Xubuntu.

Post by Mark F
A survey would presumably ask people (the potential "market") what
they don't like about Xubuntu (why they chose a different Xfce-based
distro). I see it as a difference between the proverbial "preaching to
the choir" or expanding the target audience (maybe hearing things that
aren't wanted).
What if a survey were included with the ISO ("test drive")
environment? If someone chose to install a different distro, they
could have the opportunity to explain what about Xubuntu they didn't
like? (Or, what they liked about the other distro.).

After running a survey like this, what would the expected action be?
Change Xubuntu in order to make the people who decided to use something
else happier with Xubuntu?

Taking the thought further, wouldn't changing Xubuntu mean that Xubuntu
could potentially lose some of the current users? What is the point or
benefit in getting new users while losing old ones?

Post by Mark F
It's just a thought.
To me, I would have installed MintX if it had Ubuntu's support
community. You said most of what I mentioned is configurable. But,
it's not very intuitive. If it were that simple, why not include a
"make-desktop-mint" command to set the defaults for a MintX-like

Instead of making the user able to select between several default
desktop configurations built by somebody else, I think they should
rather be able to create their own. And they are – you can take Xubuntu
and make it look like MintX and the other way if you have the patience.

You say it is not very intuitive to configure the desktop. What do you
actually mean by this?

Post by Mark F
This topic (testimonials and marketing) caught my eye because it
sounded like a desire to expand marketshare. But, maybe I misread it.
I suppose another valid way to look at it is: "Xubuntu is what it is"
and "we're looking for more people who like it the way it is." Not so
much concern for why someone wouldn't want it the way it is (lost
"market" potential).

The latter is more true for Xubuntu.

All people contribute to Xubuntu do it because they like Xubuntu (mostly
as it is) – as volunteers, without being paid, becaus they are
passionate about their cause. Considering that, I don't think it's
sensible to think that the Xubuntu team started doing something that
they don't believe in, just to gain more users – at that point they
would have lost their passion.

Post by Mark F
Anyway, I'm using it for now. I want to at least start with what I
feel is the more official Xfce distro. I just saw this topic and
thought I'd ask about marketing and the opposite of testimonials. It
seems like that could lead to insight into how Xubuntu could appeal to
more people.

For what it's worth, there is no "official Xfce distro". The Xfce team
is only working on the desktop environment (and some related project)
and does not favor any distribution over the other.

Cheers,
Pasi

[Mark F]

""" This means if enough people want change (and are there to do the tasks
needed), then it's likely to happen as well. """

I guess what I'm trying to imply is that there are (apparently) enough
people when you count all those using different Xfce implementations.

It seems like a chicken/egg thing. People went to Mint because it "looks
better." That creates a limited group here for "testimonials." You're
trying to reach what I would describe (from your description) as a larger
limited audience. Whereas, if there was more outreach to those who don't
choose Xubuntu the way it is, then there would be a larger community who
support the sorts of things they support elsewhere.

I think we're saying the same thing. It's just "which comes first." You
want to be more relevant, reaching more people who find your design
decisions to be appealing. One way to do that is to describe how it is
appealing, to find more people who share those tastes. Another way would be
to make it more *easily* like distros (more?) people find appealing. If
it's just a matter of configuration, it seems like it could be something
like a button-press to get a different desktop (like Zorin does).

I'm just coming up with ideas off the top of my head.

I get the impression (distrowatch) MintX has more users, but perhaps not as
sophisticated, knowledgeable. So, that's why there isn't the support
community like Ubuntu (generally) has. You're looking to evangelize the
like-minded. I'm just saying, if the goal is more people, why should that
be limited to a particular aesthetic. A "big tent" approach could bring
more people in, give them better support, etc.

I had already been thinking about this. The topic about soliciting user
feedback ("testimonials," almost a religious experience) for the purpose of
advocacy ("marketing") seemed to invite these thoughts. Does Xubuntu really
have to be "pure?" Couldn't it be more things to more people (especially if
a majority are heading to Mint?). Soliciting "testimonials" and having a
goal to grow the userbase is an act of pragmatics (outreach). I'm just
asking why not start from the beginning and ask how those non-Xubuntu users
were lost. Accomodate them (especially if it's just about democracy and
catering to the largest common denominator).

I appreciate having the opportunity to air my thoughts about it. I get the
impression that it's not welcome (much, subject-line changes so it's not
related to the original point I was replying to, etc.). That's ok. I
respect the group's wishes and will let it go. Sometimes it's good to think
about things from a fresh perspective. It's easy to get locked into an us
vs. them mentality, "no need to try to attract those people... we need more
people like us." Hopefully my contribution might cause some of that to be
re-thought.

[Pasi Lallinaho]

Hello Mark,

again, comments inline.

Post by Mark F
""" This means if enough people want change (and are there to do the
tasks needed), then it's likely to happen as well. """
I guess what I'm trying to imply is that there are (apparently) enough
people when you count all those using different Xfce implementations.

I was referring to change within the scope of Xubuntu.

In other words, if we want change in Xubuntu, there needs to be enough
people wanting the change and the assignees for the tasks within the
Xubuntu community.

Post by Mark F
*snip*
I had already been thinking about this. The topic about soliciting
user feedback ("testimonials," almost a religious experience) for the
purpose of advocacy ("marketing") seemed to invite these thoughts.
Does Xubuntu really have to be "pure?" Couldn't it be more things to
more people (especially if a majority are heading to Mint?).

I can't talk for others here, but personally I think that Xubuntu should
decide on one set of defaults and stick with it – if that's what you
mean by "being pure".

This allows the Xubuntu team focus exactly on what they are doing, and
do it well.

Post by Mark F
Soliciting "testimonials" and having a goal to grow the userbase is an
act of pragmatics (outreach). I'm just asking why not start from the
beginning and ask how those non-Xubuntu users were lost. Accomodate
them (especially if it's just about democracy and catering to the
largest common denominator).

We have no data on the size of the group of people who have decided not
to use Xubuntu – in this case because of the desktop ideology.
Accommodating to that group would be a gamble, and it would mean that we
would likely disappoint a portion of our current users and stopping
doing what we are passionate about.

I can see how this can make sense if your living depends on successful
marketing and the market share. Here, however, it's all still going to
be the same voluntary work even with a larger audience.

Post by Mark F
I appreciate having the opportunity to air my thoughts about it. I get
the impression that it's not welcome (much, subject-line changes so
it's not related to the original point I was replying to, etc.).

The discussion is still welcome.

The reason I changed the topic was that your first mail was more related
to new ideas on the desktop than gathering the testimonials, which we
were discussing on the original thread. Changing the thread subject also
makes this discussion more findable in the archive.

Post by Mark F
That's ok. I respect the group's wishes and will let it go. Sometimes
it's good to think about things from a fresh perspective. It's easy to
get locked into an us vs. them mentality, "no need to try to attract
those people... we need more people like us." Hopefully my
contribution might cause some of that to be re-thought.

I think you are misunderstanding the mentality; I've never said we have
shouldn't try to attract those people. What I'm saying is that I don't
think we should go to extremities like completely changing how the
desktop is built to try to attract them.

I should probably also note that I don't consider MintX (and other Xfce
distributions – or other LInux distributions) our "competitors" in the
traditional sense of the word.

If MintX works better for you, then you should use it. If Xubuntu works
better for you, great! If neither is suitable for you out of the box,
then feel free to pick either one (or a third alternative) and modify it
to your liking. Don't like Xfce? The better use another desktop
environment than continue struggling.

That is to say, In my opinion, all Linux users are a win for Xubuntu.

Cheers,
Pasi

[Sean Davis]

Much of what has been discussed so far is regarding panel layouts. We
introduced a new tool to Xubuntu a few releases back that allows you to
import, export, and apply various panel layouts. This is installed by
default and available from 1) the panel preferences > backup and restore,
or 2) Settings > Xfce Panel Switch. You can learn about it here:
https://smdavis.us/2015/10/12/xfce-panel-switch-introduction/

We ship a few layouts by default, and can of course include more. Feel
free to suggest additional layouts at https://launchpad.net/xfpanel-switch

Mint (or any other distribution) may be popular for various reasons. A
strong one that I see repeated on various blogs is predictability. Mint's
configuration does not change across releases, and they ship numerous
codecs and a wide variety of software (works "out of the box"). Recently
they have also taken to developing their own applications to ensure that
the layout (of both the desktop and the applications) does not change over
time. That's more or less described on their site:
https://linuxmint.com/about.php

Instead of shipping many specialized defaults, Xubuntu presents a minimal
desktop (and much the way it's been for years) and introduce our users to
Xfce's (and by extension, Xubuntu) customization options through our
installer, documentation (
http://docs.xubuntu.org/1604/user/C/settings-preferences.html), and
numerous blog posts (https://xubuntu.org/news/tag/the-small-details/). Of
course, we welcome discussion and ideas to further improve our defaults.

I hope this helps a bit, thanks!

Sean (bluesabre)
Xubuntu Technical Lead

Post by Mark F
""" This means if enough people want change (and are there to do the
tasks needed), then it's likely to happen as well. """
I guess what I'm trying to imply is that there are (apparently) enough
people when you count all those using different Xfce implementations.
It seems like a chicken/egg thing. People went to Mint because it "looks
better." That creates a limited group here for "testimonials." You're
trying to reach what I would describe (from your description) as a larger
limited audience. Whereas, if there was more outreach to those who don't
choose Xubuntu the way it is, then there would be a larger community who
support the sorts of things they support elsewhere.
I think we're saying the same thing. It's just "which comes first." You
want to be more relevant, reaching more people who find your design
decisions to be appealing. One way to do that is to describe how it is
appealing, to find more people who share those tastes. Another way would be
to make it more *easily* like distros (more?) people find appealing. If
it's just a matter of configuration, it seems like it could be something
like a button-press to get a different desktop (like Zorin does).
I'm just coming up with ideas off the top of my head.
I get the impression (distrowatch) MintX has more users, but perhaps not
as sophisticated, knowledgeable. So, that's why there isn't the support
community like Ubuntu (generally) has. You're looking to evangelize the
like-minded. I'm just saying, if the goal is more people, why should that
be limited to a particular aesthetic. A "big tent" approach could bring
more people in, give them better support, etc.
I had already been thinking about this. The topic about soliciting user
feedback ("testimonials," almost a religious experience) for the purpose of
advocacy ("marketing") seemed to invite these thoughts. Does Xubuntu really
have to be "pure?" Couldn't it be more things to more people (especially if
a majority are heading to Mint?). Soliciting "testimonials" and having a
goal to grow the userbase is an act of pragmatics (outreach). I'm just
asking why not start from the beginning and ask how those non-Xubuntu users
were lost. Accomodate them (especially if it's just about democracy and
catering to the largest common denominator).
I appreciate having the opportunity to air my thoughts about it. I get the
impression that it's not welcome (much, subject-line changes so it's not
related to the original point I was replying to, etc.). That's ok. I
respect the group's wishes and will let it go. Sometimes it's good to think
about things from a fresh perspective. It's easy to get locked into an us
vs. them mentality, "no need to try to attract those people... we need more
people like us." Hopefully my contribution might cause some of that to be
re-thought.
--
xubuntu-devel mailing list
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/xubuntu-devel

[Elizabeth K. Joseph]

Post by Mark F
What I'm wondering is whether you guys ever evaluate Mint Xfce and consider
evolving the desktop in that direction? Is it ever even discussed?

I haven't done a personal evaluation of Mint Xfce, but we absolutely
are continually evaluating and sorting through feedback from users on
mailing lists and social media.

Armed with this information, I bring up pain points at meetings, we
adjust our themes and wallpapers and each cycle when we evaluate our
default applications and other choices, we are able to make choices
that benefit the most number of users.

The biggest struggle is that this is all very subjective. Even in this
thread, you have opinions about what should be changed, but Jack has a
different idea, and they are very frequently opposite.

We also have to consider the direction of user environments in
general. For instance, the introduction of Whisker by default was
balked at by some in the beginning, with a lot of support requests
about how to return to the old menu. Today most users are quite happy
with it since finding things by searching for them is commonplace on
our phones, tablets, etc and now we've moved on to discussing how to
improve the behavior of it.

Finally, it's important to remember that we're all volunteers and our
time is limited :) Your feedback is great and adds to this wealth of
information we can use to make decisions about our priorities and
direction, but we are quite limited in what we an done. Our
development team is doing the work of making sure software is packaged
and updated, whereas projects that use our packages (like Mint Xfce)
can focus their development efforts exclusively on making improvements
based on their own user feedback on top of that.